June 19, 1958:
Joseph Papp
The Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American
Activities met at
Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M.
Moulder, of
Staff members present: Richard ARENS, Staff Director, and Donald T. Appell, Investigator.
MR. ARENS: Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: My name
is Joseph Papirofsky. I am a producer of Shakespearean plays for
MR. ARENS: You are appearing today, Mr. Papirofsky, in response to a subpoena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: That is right.
MR. ARENS: You are represented by counsel?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes.
MR. ARENS: Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
MR. LONDON: Ephraim London.
MR. ARENS: Are you also known, Mr. Papirofsky, as Mr. Papp?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, my professional name is Mr. Papp.
MR. ARENS: Where and when were you born, please, sir?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I was
born in
MR. ARENS: Give us a word, please, sir, about your formal education.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: High-school graduate.
MR. ARENS: And a thumbnail sketch, if you do not mind, sir, of your professional career.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Working from the present back?
MR. ARENS: Either direction, whichever is more convenient to you.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: My present work is primarily centered around the New York Shakespeare Festival, which is an educational nonprofit organization chartered by the [New York] state education department, established for the purpose of producing plays for the general public without admission charge. The programs also include free performances of Shakespeare for high-school students.
MR. ARENS: The Shakespeare Workshop produces the Shakespeare Festival, is that correct?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: In effect, I would say that is correct.
MR. ARENS: If I am not burdening you too much here in the recitation of the facts of this particular enterprise, what is your connection with the Workshop?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am producer of the New York Shakespeare Festival, having the same role with the Workshop.
MR. ARENS: How long has the Workshop been in existence?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I believe the charter was issued in September 1954.
MR. ARENS: Is it incorporated?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It is a state-chartered organization. It is a nonprofit organization. I am the head and founder of the organization and the moving force behind the organization.
MR. ARENS: Does it enjoy tax-free status?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, it does.
MR. ARENS: Do you receive a salary from this Workshop?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I began to receive a salary five months ago. For the first three years I received no salary.
MR. ARENS: Is this a full-time activity by yourself?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It is a most time-consuming and full-time activity.
MR. MOULDER: How is it financed?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It is financed through contributions from the general public, from foundations, and part of the financing, indirect finance, is the fact that we are on city property and the city, in effect, contributes facilities for making that possible.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. ARENS: On that same theme, could you give us a word about the budget? What is the aggregate income and expenditure of the organization?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It is very difficult to get an exact figure, but I can tell you what a show would cost. I mentioned the number of shows, you might add it up, because the costs have increased as we go on because we began to pay people's salaries. Prior to this point, there were no salaries paid. The production we plan to open on July 2 will cost approximately four thousand dollars a week to run, and has a preproduction cost of approximately eighteen thousand dollars. This is the highest budget we have had yet.
MR. ARENS: Would the budget in the aggregate for all of the activities of the organization run in the neighborhood of a million dollars a year?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, I am afraid not. I would say, roughly, if we were to continue on the basis we are playing now, it would cost approximately - playing ten or eleven months a year - two hundred thousand dollars a year to operate.
MR. ARENS: Would you kindly tell us the employment you had prior to your connection with the Workshop?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Prior to working with the Festival, I was employed by CBS as a stage manager.
MR. ARENS: Over what period of time?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am still employed by CBS as a stage manager.
MR. ARENS: When did that employment begin?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It began sometime in 1951.
MR. ARENS: What was your connection prior to CBS?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Prior to
that I was in
MR. ARENS: How long did you work for the Actors' Laboratory, Incorporated?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I came to the Actors' Laboratory as a student under the GI bill, and then I became employed there for approximately two years. I think it was from 1948 to 1950.
MR. ARENS: In what capacity?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I worked in the office as kind of a manager.
MR. ARENS: Were there any
other schools with which you were connected in
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, I
also taught acting to working people at the
***
MR. ARENS: Mr. Papirofsky, are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am not now a member of the Communist Party.
MR. ARENS: Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time since you received your subpoena to appear before this Committee?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that question on the grounds of self-incrimination.
MR. ARENS: Were you a member of the Communist Party during the course of the last month?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir.
MR. ARENS: Have you been
a member of the Communist Party at any time since you received your subpoena on
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir, I have not.
MR. ARENS: Have you been a member of the Communist Party in the course of the last year?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir.
MR. ARENS: Have you been a member of the Communist Party any time since January 1955?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that question on the grounds of self-incrimination.
MR. ARENS: Have you been a member of the Communist Party since June 1955?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir.
MR. ARENS: Have you been a member of the Communist Party any time since February 1955?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
MR. ARENS: Are there persons presently in the entertainment industry who, to your certain knowledge, are or in the recent past have been members of the Communist Party?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am afraid I do not know the answer to that question.
MR. ARENS: Have you resigned from the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: The assumption is that I was a member of the Communist Party, and, therefore, I must respectfully decline to answer that on the basis of the Fifth Amendment.
MR. ARENS: Are you a Communist, though not a member of the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: The answer to that is no.
MR. ARENS: Have you been
since
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.
MR. ARENS: Did I
understand you to say that when you were instructing at the
MR. PAPIROFSKY: To the best of my knowledge, I think there was no pay.
MR. ARENS: Did you know
that the
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I did not know it was so controlled.
MR. ARENS: Were you a
Communist when you were teaching at the
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.
MR. ARENS: Were you a Communist when you were teaching at the Actors' Laboratory?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that on the grounds previously stated.
MR. ARENS: Are you a member of a professional trade-union?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, sir.
MR. ARENS: Which one?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Radio and Television Directors Guild.
MR. ARENS: How long have you been connected with that organization?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Approximately six years.
MR. ARENS: Have you held any post or office in that organization?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I have never been an officer of the organization.
MR. ARENS: During the
course of your period of instructing at the
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that, sir, on the same grounds.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
If the intent of that question was whether I used my position to get members into the Communist Party, I must say no to that.
MR. ARENS: I have a Thermofax reproduction of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker entitled, “Theatre Groups, Noted Actors Wire Support to People's Drama.” The wire of support from famous actors signed by half a dozen persons, including Joe Papirofsky, all of the executive committee of Actors' Laboratory Theater, reads in part: “Outraged at news of brutal hoodlum attack on actors. Flagrant display of direct censorship.” Kindly look at that article which Mr. Appell is now displaying to you and tell this Committee whether or not it refreshes your recollection, whether or not you used your prestige in the entertainment industry in that protest.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must say my answer is still unchanged, sir. I have always been opposed to censorship, and I would send another wire if there were censorship again, lending my support to an attack of this kind, because this was a direct attack on these people, and I felt at the time that it was absolutely wrong, and I would do it again.
MR. ARENS: Were you a Communist when you sent that wire?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
MR. ARENS: What name did
you use when you were in
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Joseph Papirofsky.
MR. ARENS: When did you begin the use of the name Papp?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: It was not my doing. It began at CBS. They have a very small type schedule and my name was too long, and they condensed it, they began to call me Papp, and I began to use the name.
MR. ARENS: You have expressed yourself publicly with reference to the Committee before which you are appearing today.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, I did express myself publicly, if I remember correctly, and my opinion is exactly the same today as it was then.
MR. ARENS: Is your opinion - and I am not trying to probe your opinion - still in condemnation of Larry Parks, who broke from the Communist Party and came before the Committee and identified a number of communists? Are you still hostile to that man?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Am I hostile to him?
MR. ARENS: Yes.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: The feeling I would have about Mr. Parks would be the same feeling I would have about anybody who would gratuitously injure the people who work with him in the way he did.
MR. ARENS: What if Mr. Parks, instead of having been in the communist conspiracy, had been in a narcotics ring and came before the appropriate investigating committee and identified persons active in the narcotics ring? Would you be in opposition to him then?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am afraid I cannot go into that question, because the one case you mentioned, with Mr. Parks, has to do with a man because of the way he functioned, hurt the employment of people, innocent people, by mentioning names, and so forth. Whereas, the narcotic situation is hurting men's bodies and not their thinking.
MR. ARENS: YOU acclaimed Mr. Parks publicly at one time and used your prestige and used the glamour of your position to acclaim Mr. Parks when he at first refused to cooperate with the Committee on Un-American Activities.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I have no glamour and prestige. I think it is a misnomer to use that.
MR. ARENS: You let your name be used in acclaim of Larry Parks when he refused to cooperate with the Committee on Un-American Activities, is that correct?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes, if you have a record of it there, I would have to say I did.
MR. ARENS: Do you recall doing that?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir, I do not.
MR. ARENS: Let me lay before you a Thermofax reproduction of an advertisement bearing the names of a number of persons:
The Thomas Rankin
Committee Must Go!
We, the undersigned members of the acting profession, acclaim Larry
Parks one of the unfriendly nineteen.” We acclaim those actors who appeared in
This advertisement appeared just before Larry Parks decided he was going to cooperate with the Committee and it bears, among others, the name of Joseph Papirofsky. Kindly look at that and tell us whether or not you have a recollection of joining in that enterprise and letting your name be used.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: “The Thomas Rankin Committee Must Go”?
MR. ARENS: Yes, that is correct.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: That is my name here.
MR. ARENS: Did you consciously and knowingly lend your name to that enterprise?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I think I have stated my position on the question of the Committee.
MR. ARENS: Did you do so in that instance?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: My name is there, so I certainly did.
MR. ARENS: Do you recall doing it?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, I do not recall.
MR. ARENS: Were you a Communist when you did it?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must refuse to answer on the same grounds as I mentioned before.
MR. ARENS: Have you knowingly lent your name in the course of your professional career to enterprises which to your certain knowledge were promoted by the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the same grounds I mentioned previously.
MR. ARENS: I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff interrogation of this witness.
MR. PAPIROFSKY:
Representative Moulder, I would like to submit this. This is a magazine
published by the State Department and sent to
MR. SCHERER: When you were making those Voice of America tapes were you a member of the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: No, sir, I was not a member of the Communist Party when I was making the Voice of America tapes.
MR. SCHERER: Did you disclose to the State Department that you had been a member of the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I must decline to answer that question on the same constitutional grounds as I mentioned.
***
MR. MOULDER: Do you have the opportunity to inject into your plays or into the acting or the entertainment supervision which you have any propaganda in any way which would influence others to be sympathetic with the Communist philosophy or the beliefs of Communism?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Sir, the plays we do are Shakespeare's plays. Shakespeare said, “To thine own self be true,” and various other lines from Shakespeare can hardly be said to be subversive or influencing minds. I cannot control the writings of Shakespeare. He wrote plays five hundred [sic] years ago. I am in no position to influence what the final product will be, except artistically and except in terms of my job as a producer.
MR. MOULDER: My point is, do you intentionally control the operation of the entertainment which you produce or supervise for the purpose of influencing sympathy toward Communism?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: The answer to that is obviously no. The plays speak for themselves. I began to mention the plays that we did. Maybe some of these plays might be considered propagandistic.
MR. ARENS: We are not concerned with the plays, and you know we are not, and there is no suggestion here by this chairman or anyone else that Shakespeare was a Communist. That is ludicrous and absurd. That is the Commie line. The inquiry of this Committee is solely with reference to the extent to which Communists have used their prestige in the theater to promote Communists; and for you to twist this testimony, in the presence of the public press here, to give an implication that the Chairman is trying to elicit information from you that Shakespeare was subversive, or this Committee is investigating Shakespeare, investigating that type of thing, is not only ludicrous, but it is highly unfair.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am sorry. I think you misunderstand me.
MR. ARENS: I did not misunderstand you.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am saying that, over the past years, I have been devoting all my energies to this project, in which the plays of Shakespeare are most important.
MR. ARENS: Have you been devoting some of your energy to the Communist Party?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I think I have answered all of those questions the way you have put them forward to me.
MR. MOULDER: I was very much impressed by your straightforward and honest replies to counsel concerning your background and your work. When it comes to the question of whether you have been actively connected with the Communist Party, that is a different matter. I do not intend to interrogate you about your philosophies or beliefs unless you volunteer to submit that information.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I voluntarily submitted that information because I think it is important in terms of how I am to be judged by anybody.
MR. MOULDER: Have you undergone any change in your beliefs, in your philosophies or social beliefs, and the form of government we should have, during the past two or three years? Have you changed your opinion in that connection?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Changed my opinion from what?
MR. MOULDER: In your philosophy of government or form of government we should have.
MR. PAPIROFSKY: My opinions change constantly, and they have changed from time to time on many, many subjects.
MR. MOULDER: You understand, of course, the Communist philosophy is antispiritual, antireligious, and is very much in conflict with our system in the American form of government and the American way of life. Do you agree with that?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I am not antispiritual or antireligious in any way.
MR. MOULDER: You mentioned a while ago that to give names of other people, such as Larry Parks, you considered wrong when it does injury to other people?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Yes.
MR. MOULDER: If Communism is not subversive or a danger to our American form of government and our way of life, then what harm is done by revealing the names of people who are active in the Communist Party and the Communist movement?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: First, the question assumes I know these people.
MR. MOULDER: I am not asking you that. I am asking you, as a result of your statement, what harm is done if Communism is not subversive and is not a threat to our form of government and the American way of life, then what harm does it do to reveal the names of people who are active members of the Communist Party, if that is true?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I understand the question, Representative Moulder. You know there is a blacklisting device in the industry, and the naming of people this way does deny these people the right to work, which I think is terribly unfair and un-American.
MR. ARENS: Who denies them the right to work?
MR. PAPIROFSKY: Because of the kinds of publicity accumulated at these hearings.
MR. ARENS: Do you think it is wrong to disassociate from public media of expression in this country people who are secret members of a conspiracy which has as its avowed objective the overthrow of this Government by force and violence?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: I just think it is wrong to deny anybody employment because of their political beliefs.
MR. ARENS: Do you think it is wrong to employ them if they are members of a conspiratorial apparatus?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
MR. PAPIROFSKY: This question assumes that there is a conspiracy and that I know about it, and I must decline to answer it on the same grounds.
(Witness excused.)